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Post by QC Mike on Jan 14, 2024 20:03:56 GMT -7
Tie Breakers
Formalize what the tie breakers are, in what order they are, and how they will be applied. For example, in the event of a 3+ way tie that gets to HtH points, does that determine only the top spot or all of them at once?
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Post by Chelsea on Jan 22, 2024 10:54:41 GMT -7
I think in a 3-way tie, when one team is "eliminated" it is then a 2-way tie, I don't see why you would add back in the already eliminated team. I do agree with Mike that this should be clarified.
Barry
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Post by Oxford United on Jan 22, 2024 12:18:45 GMT -7
Because the tiebreakers are applied in order, if one of the three teams drops out at most games played, then that team has secured the lowest available finish. The two teams that subsequently check for most points in games played against each other are now vying for the highest finish.
There could definitely be a clarification regarding how the three teams might check for most points in games played against each other. In the case of three teams, I'd total the points for all 4 games each team has played and compare, but that should probably be codified.
Thanks for looking into stuff like this before it becomes an issue.
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Post by nash on Jan 26, 2024 13:11:23 GMT -7
Mike, why don't you update the rulebook with whatever tiebreak order you think appropriate.
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Post by QC Mike on Jan 26, 2024 16:57:09 GMT -7
Mike, why don't you update the rulebook with whatever tiebreak order you think appropriate. Because no one gave me that power, I don't want it, and I have serious questions that I want input on as I'm not sure of the best way to handle the questions (I only dabbled in statistical analysis for reporting purposes). As well, if I'm making arbitrary rules like that I'm going to go three points for a regulation win and two for an OT/shootout win and diminish the chances of a tie that comes down to Head to Head (HtH) records.
ex. Four way tie for the last play off spot that comes down to HtH record for all the teams. - Team A: lost twice to B, Won twice vs C, Won twice vs D = 8 pts (4-2-0)
- Team B: beat A twice, Tied C twice, Tied D twice = 8 pts (2-0-4)
- Team C: lost to A twice, tied B twice, tied D twice = 4 pts (0-2-4)
- Team D: lost to A twice, tied B trwice, tied C twice = 4 pts (0-2-4)
Do we determine the top two at this point or just the top one and then recalculate? If we recalculate B better hope it scores lots of goals as its wins drop out of the equation.
Consider,three way tie for last two playoff spots. - Team A: Beats B in OT and loses, beats C twice in OT = 6 pts (3-1-0)
- Team B: beats A and loses in OT, beats C 1 in OT and loses 1 = 5 pts (2-1-1)
- Team C: loses to A twice in OT, loses to C in OT and wins 1 = 5 (1-0-3)
If we determine all three at once it A>B>C. If we only calculate one spot and than recalculate it A>C>B
These are also arguments for the skills competition (shoot-out) to determine a winner so you end up with less of these two ties/losses equals a win jamming up the standings.
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Post by nash on Jan 26, 2024 17:41:42 GMT -7
Alright. Here is the order:
1. Games Played
2. Wins
3. Goals For
4. H2H
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Post by Oxford United on Jan 26, 2024 21:22:26 GMT -7
Alright. Here is the order: 1. Games Played 2. Wins 3. Goals For 4. H2H Another year, another attempt to change the order of the tie break. For all the same reasons as last time, I disagree this change. EDIT: I'll clarify why Games Played is a bad idea as the first tiebreaker. I have 11 wins in 22 games played. Nash has 10 wins in 24 games played. The team I have to play has decided not to finish its season. Nash finishes ahead of me, causing this kind of silliness: - If I had been able to play the last two games and lost both, I'd finish ahead of Nash.
- Nash finishes ahead of me despite winning fewer games.
- Nash finishes ahead of me despite losing more games.
- Nash drafts ahead of me because unplayed games count as wins for draft order.
That's why GP can't be the first tiebreaker.
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Adam (Moose Jaw)
Power User
Da competition is gonna sleep wit da fishes
Posts: 145
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Post by Adam (Moose Jaw) on Jan 27, 2024 9:01:45 GMT -7
In regards to the H2H tie breaks with more than two teams, the PWHL uses this:
When more than two Clubs are tied, the percentage of available points earned in games among each other shall be used to determine standing.
Just thought it might be relevant as the PWHL is a three points/game league, if we decide to go down that road.
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Post by QC Mike on Jan 27, 2024 13:54:31 GMT -7
Alright. Here is the order: 1. Games Played 2. Wins 3. Goals For 4. H2H Another year, another attempt to change the order of the tie break. For all the same reasons as last time, I disagree this change. Not trying to really change anything (until/unless we get shoot outs and 3 point regulation wins and things have to change - you go Girls!).
Was more trying to make sure there's something down for HTH rankings where there are more than two teams involved. - As written it merely states "Most points in games against each other". Does this set the order for all of the tied teams at once or just the top one and then recalculate without that "top" team?
- If Goal Differential is equal, what's next? I would propose Goals For to encourage scoring.
- Do we do the Differential and Goals For within the tied teams first or league wide after HTH? I lean towards once we're comparing records HTH for points, you keep internal for differential and Goals For before stepping outside again for league stats. (GD HTH, GF HTH, GD League Wide, GF League Wide)
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Post by Shamrockville on Jan 27, 2024 14:10:16 GMT -7
While I agree that it needs to be formally listed, I think this may be a level of minutiae that we don't require. I can only think of one season where there was even a remote discrepancy as far as the standings.
Wins should be first. We haven't had an issue with games being played in more than a decade, besides, if you have lots of wins, you will have lots of games played no?
And if there is a tie, say in requisite # 2 (whatever that criteria is in our order), then once that's resolved and the teams have been slotted, then the sorting goes back to the top of the order until such time as a new tie becomes evident.
That is to say, that wins should sort the order first, then if you see a tie scenario only those teams need to be sorted, no one is getting bumped aside from those teams. We shouldn't need 5 different scenarios for 12 teams.
Wins>GF>HTH>GP would seem to be the easiest order, though I'd replace the GP with GD.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Oxford United on Jan 28, 2024 9:31:15 GMT -7
Assuming that the order of the tiebreakers remains as is (Wins > GP > Most Points H2H > Total Goal Differential), here's how I would handle ties that get past Wins and Games Played. Reminder: The rule for H2H is "Most points in games against each other." | Team | Points | Rank | | A | 8 | Tied at 1st | | B | 8 | Tied at 1st | | C | 4 | Tied at 3rd | | D | 4 | Tied at 3rd |
Teams A and B advance to the 4th tiebreaker together. They will be ranked 1 and 2. Teams C and D advance to the 4th tiebreaker together. They will be ranked 3 and 4. | Team | Points | Rank | | A | 6 | 1 | | B | 5 | Tied for 2nd | | C | 5 | Tied for 2nd |
Team A is ranked 1 and makes the playoffs. Teams B and C advance to the 4th tiebreaker together. They will be ranked 2 and 3. |
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